Haiku/Revised

[mfwilkie]

At the train station, a wooden bench fills with blue




Original

above an empty bench
a blues-less sky

[Marion Poirier]

Maggie, this looks like the play on words technique -
The Japanese master Shiki frowned on this technique.
I am of the opinion that it works better in a senryu,
even then, it may be a little far-fetched, although humor
is often expressed in haiku of the masters; they don't
differentiate between haiku and senryu.

I prefer to record what I see objectively without
putting any spin or interpretation on it
or using personification. I use the - it is what it is - theory.

Marion

[Marion Poirier]

Maggie,
My example wasn't that good so I deleted it
and starting over.
M

[Marion Poirier]

Maggie,
My example is not perfect. I revised it a few times -
but now I see some flaws. Japanese students
worked for ten years on one haiku - I've been told.
I'm going to make a slight change here.

orange-red leaves
fly with swallows
gray clouds drift

M

Another updated version:

red-orange leaves
fly with the swallow
gray clouds drift

I think that the singular swallow is more effective and
the article adds strength. I also changed the order of red-orange
for closer assonance with swallow in the middle line.

Still pondering that middle line.

[mfwilkie]

I like them both, M, but I see why you made the change.

When I aproached our little station house on the way to Boston
the other day, I saw the empty bench and and a sky empty of clouds and thought how different both impressions of empty were.

It's the recognition of that duality I'm trying to work out in this ku.

Using 'less' is a negative Rick pointed out to me and although blueless means a sky empty of clouds to me, the blue skies of harmony isn't coming across to the reader.

Thanks for your look-see and your thoughts and example.

I'll muse on it more.

Hope your holiday was enjoyable, M.

Maggie

[purplejacket]

To me, the empty bench evoked loneliness, and the blues-less sky pointed to feeling ok, even though lonely. The sky doesn't have the blues, doesn't miss anybody.

[Marion Poirier]

Maggie, I see where you are coming from now.
I thought you were using a play of words because
I've never heard the word blue-less used that way.
It is not in the Mirriam Webster Dictionary although
I understood exactly what you meant.
Your explanation of how this idea was formed
makes it sound like a a very good
concept for a Ku. If you could get rid of less and
state it another way rather than blue-less, you
would have a very creative Ku.

What color was the sky that day?.
Pewter, slate, etc. you get the idea.
If the sky was not blue then you should record
the color that you see - not the absence of blue.
I personally would stay away from personification as
many editors frown on it - that is, if you are suggesting
that the sky is blue as in sad.

You may have this link by Zaida;
it's another good one.
Note how simple she writes the haibun;
it's an excellent example.

www.geocities.com/angelsainthero/zaidahaiku.html

I'm not through with my Ku example -
still tinkering with it - although gray clouds are over-used -
I used gray for contrast with the leaves - may
change it and and in line 2 use soar
rather than fly for a stronger verb.
On the other hand, I like to use subtlety in my work.

The possibilities are endless for ku's.
I'm surprised that no-one remarked on the two lines
since many think a ku has to be three lines; it can be
one to four, as long as it doesn't exceed 17 syllables.
I have never seen one in a single line but the Japanese
have written like that in the past - don't know if it
is still true because translated into English they
are usually in three lines sometimes two or four.
It is difficult to write a Ku in two lines;
I think it is a very good idea to try and it trains
you to condense and trim.

I'll be looking forward to your revision.
Hope your holiday was enjoyable as well.
Thanks.

M

[purplejacket]

do you mean blue-less or blues-less, as it's written? The two mean different things.

Blue-less sky means sky-with-no-blue, which sounds cloudy or foggy or smoggy to me. Blues-less is entirely different, because a sky that isn't sad, doesn't have the blues, is happy, and because it's the sky, it is blue. Blue skies and happy times over an empty bench.

[Marion Poirier]

Maggie and Amanda,
As a play on words, it is very clever. I can't find blues-less
in the dictionary either. Is there really such as word?
You can't make up a word - not in a Ku - regardless,
the absence of blues is not a concrete image but an interpretation.
Personally, I think it causes too much confusion as written-
even for a short poem. Again, as I've said before, this may
target a specific audience.

M

[Jo Lynn Ehnes]

boy I know naught of haiku but couldn't you just reverse blues and less and make it

a less blues sky

would that get your point across?

[Marion Poirier]

Maggie and JL,
hi

It's the less that is amiss in this haiku.
pale blue would be more in line with the requirements
of Ku.

above an empty bench
a pale blue sky

this would be a Ku; however I don't think that pale
cuts it - maybe - what other shades of blue are there?
I'd use a shade of blue to describe the scene.
If it still is not strong enough then, I'd add a third line.

I feel you want to write this in two lines, Maggie.
There must be endless adjectives you could use here
to create a concrete image.
I kinda like it (now) in the above example.
Why didn't I think of that before? A little slow, I am. (LOL!)

M

P.S. also a Ku usually contains a fragment and a complete
thought according to Jane R.; however - I've seen
all three lines running together - don't think this is the
best technique. I need to go back to my studies to get
in the loop - after the first of the year when I have the time.

[Jo Lynn Ehnes]

so what you are saying is she would need to do something along the line of

above an empty bench
a barren blue sky

or

above an empty bench
a pale blue sky
cloudless

Is that what you are saying?

[Jonathan Morey Weiss-Namaste47]

I think it's the second, JL. I have enjoyed reading this thread and the interchange of ideas. I hadn't heard of a 2-line haiku, but I guess it's allowable, from what you say, Marion.
As far as blues-less, it probably doesn't strictly fit the form.

above an empty bench
a cloudless blue sky

[Marion Poirier]

I am energized to read the interchange of ideas here, Jon
and JL. I love haiku - do not consider myself an
expert - perhaps an advanced intermediate - (it's a stretch).
it is an art that you have to breathe like the
the other genres of poetry - few have the luxury of
time or patience.

JL, I think you've got the idea. I like your suggestions -
that's what I should have done for Maggie in the
beginning - to be honest - I was horrified
at the word play - I love satire and hate puns -
a personal thing.

Any of your suggestions would be correct, JL and Jon

I like barren - I think that Maggie wants to try it
in the two-line form - not common but a legitimate
form of haiku - more difficult than the ordinary three lines.
It's more challenging; I think that's the idea.

I still don't like the less tacked onto clouds, Jon and JL.
Don't tell us what is missing - but what you see -
be specific in your observations. Now- the rub: you
need a twist to elevate it from the ordinary into a great one.

That's what they mean by the aha moment - though it
can be subtle- does not have to slap you in the face.
My example was far from perfect and line 3 did not cut it -
I've revised since; however, this is Maggie's post
and I apologize for getting carried away.

I think we are getting there with our combined
efforts; Ku's are much harder to write than one would
suspect.

Waiting to hear from you, Maggie.

We are a long way from done, my friends.

M

[mfwilkie]

M,

What about:

above an empty bench
absolute blue

I am going for the two-line ku, guys.

Maggie

[Jonathan Morey Weiss-Namaste47]

above an empty bench
nothing but blue

above an empty bench
a lonely sky

just playin'

[Marion Poirier]

Maggie,
Glad to see you back, my friend.
This site would fall apart without your dedication
and talent.


Absolute is abstract - you need something we can visualize.

Jon, same thing for #1 and #2 - you are using personification again


Do not despair, my friends - we have a century to go
before we call it quits. (LOL!)

M

[mfwilkie]

;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Okay, seriously though, M, I can see absolute working the same way empty does as a modifier for bench.

Its first definition as an adjective is free of imperfection, complete, perfect.

You asked me what color the sky was that day, and it was absolutely blue, not a mark on it anywhere.

Mulling, mulling, mulling.

Maggie

[Marion Poirier]

Maggie, absolute does not give me a clearer picture
any more than blue by itself - crystal blue would
give me an image of sunlight in addition to blue.

I know your goal is for a two line ku; therefore, I
suggest adding a couple of words after blue.
I don't think it's strong enough by itself.

not a mark on it anywhere

Now if you could think of another way to say this to create
the picture that you see. You could do this by comparing
it to something perfect or near perfect. You know, I'm sure
that overt similes are not used but you could use a disguised
simile by leaving out the as or like - comparing it to a
blue diamond, etc.

This is just an idea to experiment with - hope it helps.

M

[purplejacket]

Was Mindy in the sky?

[Jo Lynn Ehnes]

Maggie could you use sheer somehow, maybe that is the word that would fit what you saw and what Marion is asking for as well.

[wavemaker9 (Rick D.)]

a tree falls in the woulds

[mfwilkie]

M,

Regrouping here and going for a one-line-er.



the wooden bench is filled with blue

At the train station, a wooden bench empties of all but blue


www.simplyhaiku.com/SHv2n5/haikuclinic/haikuclinic.html

Still mulling.

JL, The sky was a solid sheet of blue so sheer wouldn't work. Thanks for the thought, though.

Would those woulds, Rick. ;D

Maggie

[Marion Poirier]

Thanks for the great link, Maggie.
Very interesting and challenging way of writing haiku.

I think the one-liner for this one is a very good idea.

Very nice work. I like them.

I'm wondering if you need is in #1 as Ku's are
often made up of fragments.

The one-liner works better for this scene IMO. and
I think you get your intent across.

How about this arrangement - a combination of each -
not sure if we should use capitals and comma's though
see them in the examples. I guess either way is OK.
I'm thinking of strictly modern - but they are also written
with punctuation and initial caps in other regions.

At the train station, the wooden bench fills with blue

This way it encompasses both, and you only have one
verb for a smoother read.
You might want to change the second article to a

M

Maggie, this would also work well as a two-liner;
rather than the comma the line break could be after station.
I think it works very well as a two-liner as well. It;s the
additional image here of the train station that makes the
difference. Yes, I like this a lot!

at the train station
a wooden bench fills with blue

I used a for article in line 2

[mfwilkie]

We're on the same wave length, M.

I've been nipping and re-arranging those words all afternoon.

Thanks for all your help. It's much appreciated.

How's the ms coming?

Maggie

[Marion Poirier]

Maggie, this one turned out great!

Excellent work!

I was thinking before this new idea of yours that
you needed to add another image to the sky-
it was there all along in the scene you described to me.

I'm wrapping up the manuscript - I need about a week to
get it finished and transferred to a CD. Should not be long now before its in print.

Thanks for asking.

M

[dmtimney]

Above an empty bench
a sky less blue

Don't know if the count is correct but it seems to fix the original problem.

!D