haiku

[Jo Lynn Ehnes]

winter wheat
sleeps till warmth blankets
harvest waits

[Marion Poirier]

JL, this does not appear to be happening
in the moment -
but rather anticipating the future. A haiku always
takes place in the present while the poet is
observing the scene.

Also, you are using personification and therefore
drawing a conclusion. You have three verbs here -
a good haiku has one verb- though two are acceptable.
You draw no conclusions in haiku - only record what
you actually see.

Perhaps I can think of some examples how this
can be fixed - but I'll leave it to you for now-
my brain is over-worked, obviously by some
of my responses.

We could call this a short poem though.
Actually it is very nice, good alliteration
and concept,
but not following the rules of haiku.

Best regards,
Marion

[Jo Lynn Ehnes]

I know nothing about haiku, so it is just a short poem, hmmmm, I'll give some thought to it. I'll either try to make it a haiku based on what you said or I'll give it a title and let it be a short poem. Thanks, dear, you're thoughts are appreciated.

[Marion Poirier]

JL here is a link that will explain the different techniques
that are used in combination with the images.
The images must be connected by most commonly:
association, contrast or comparison - at least two concrete
images are used - no more than three. They are
not limited to what you can see but also experience
through the other senses of smell, touch, feel, etc.
The first line is the subject of the haiku and the other
lines are connected in one of the above mentioned ways.

Here is a link by Jane Reichhold; she explains ALL
the techniques; however some are rarely used -
but the examples will give you a better feel and
understanding of haiku.

www.ahapoetry.com/haiartjr.htm


My best,
Marion

[mfwilkie]

That's a terrific link, JL.

M,

Does this work?

how comfortable the wheat sleeps

Maggie

[Marion Poirier]

Maggie,
Is your suggested line to replace the
first two lines? You would need another line
for the association or one of the other techniques.
Line 3 is not an image as written; it should
describe a scene as if you were looking at an
instant snapshot. (That is another way that haiku
has been frequently defined.)

Also, I believe that comfortable is an adverb
modifying the verb sleeps. Adverbs
rarely if ever are used in haiku.
I think this would work well as a two-line haiku.

Hope this helps.
M

[Jarlsbane - Michael Ray Cotner]

Hello Jo Lynne --

I think thsi is a lovely haiku... i think you have the basics covered with two concrete lines of imagery that denote season and give adequate description to the scene... the use of "sleep til 'warmth' blankets" might be a tad confusing to some as I think you are refering to a blanket of snow that would actually protect the seedling til harvest... am I interpreting this correct? I also think you have an acceptable satori and disagree with Marion that your haiku is invalid because it anticipates the future. Any haiku that would reference a bud on a flower or a budding leaf anticipates the future by it's very nature... and there are a myriad haiku that do so. Is not a bud a representation of a future leaf or flower?? ... when we think of a bud does not the mind immediately jump to envision a future time when that bud will be in bloom?? Hogwash and balderdash! As far as Jane Riechhold goes she has given a fantastic look at haiku form but IS NOT the end and be all of haiku knowledge and discusion... I respect the opinion but there is more than one haiku theory and position on the interpretation of the original haiku intent translated from the japanese form... just my thoughts... Jarls

[Jo Lynn Ehnes]

Yes, Michael, I have read so many different theories on haiku how does one know what is right and wrong. I will work on the middle line. I guess in my mind I was seeing a couple of visions, the wheat beneath the snow sleeping then not waking to grow until the warmth of spring blanketed, but I'll work on that because maybe the sleeping beneath the blanket of snow is the stronger image. I appreciate your thoughts, cause in my mind this does work as a haiku. Glad you stopped by.

[mfwilkie]

Mike,

Where do you find a satori? I don't hear one.

JL,

One of the things I've come to learn in my own study of Haiku is that when you have a haiku-moment and wish to write it down, you need to decide if you're going to write it in the classical Japanese tradition or the Modern tradition.

If you studied the acknowledged masters of haiku from Basho on down, you'll find differences. Here are some haiku to consider:

Summer grasses
all that's left
of warriors' dreams
Basho

The world of dew
is the world of dew
and yet, and yet
Issa

Under cherry trees
there are
no strangers
Buson

They spoke no word
the host,the guest
and the white chrysanthemum
Ryota

What is in the heart?
The sound of a pine breeze
there in the painting
Ikkyu


And here are some Contemporary Haiku by Sylvia Forges-Ryan:

Among these lilies
in Monet's pond
basho's watersound

After the abortion
the rain all day
on the daylillies

Monarch flyway
over the dunes
a long orange ribbon

winter sunset
in the coffin she wears
her fanciest dress***

*** This one, to me, seems closest
to what you were striving for JL.

And the point Marion makes about considerations when composing a haiku is valid.

Jane Riechhold is giving examples of objective technique gleaned after years of study. Her essays are an excellent, clear cut source for a novice haiku writer.

After you read all she has to say, and all anyone else has to say, the key to inderstanding the how of haiku is to read them, thousands of them.

Here's my Harvard checklist for revising haiku:

A. Can you see or clearly hear two parts?

B. In most cases, haiku should not read as a complete sentence.

C. Have you jkept to the short-long-short form? (classic ku)

D. Have you written in the present tense?

E. Are there any adjectives or adverbs to be gotten rid of?

F. Have you checked to see that all unnecessary words have been gotten rid of?

G. Have you used the most exact nouns ("sparrow", not "bird')?

H. Does your haiku work on more than one level? Does it describe
both a scene and a state of mind, for example?

I. Have you included a seasonal word?

J. Does the third line lead to an "Aha" or a feeling of surprise?

K. have you used ordinary language?

L. Are the images concrete?

M. Have you given the reader less that half a haiku?

N. Have you experimanted with changing the order of the lines, keeping the 'Aha" feeling for the last line?

Of all the people I've discussed haiku with over the years,
our own Marion is someone to listen to, guys.

Here's a piece by Tennyson:

Flower in the crannied wall,
I pluck you out of the crannies:
Hold you here, root and all, in my hand,
Little flower—but if I could understand
What you are, root and all, and all in all,
I would know what God and man is.

And here's a ku by Shiki:

among the grasses
an unknown flower
blooming white

Anything less is not haiku, modern or otherwise.


Marion: Here's my revision

how comfortable
the wheat sleeps
beneath the down

I think I prefer it as a one liner though:

how comfortable the wheat sleeps beneath the down

Have at it, M.

Maggie

[Jo Lynn Ehnes]

wow, you are such a gem, Mag. can't believe you spent this much time on that. I have so much reading and studying to do if I'm going to attempt anymore of these that's for sure. I think I would hear it more along the line of

winter wheat
shy pose
beneath the snow

Like I said, lots of studying

[Jarlsbane - Michael Ray Cotner]

Mags,

I would agree that the "satori" 'harvest waits' is a weak one (no offense JL) but I think it is still a satori... the A-ha or feeling of surprise as you put it is also described as a moment of reflection or epiphany of sorts that the reader pauses in contemplation.

Harvest waits gives me the feeling or in contemplation makes me think of all the things that could go wrong in the growth process... harvest waits on the weather, rain too little or too much frozen ground or destructive hail... will the sun shine enough... look at all that has to happen right for a seed to bring forth fruit over a period of months and what can harvest do to change any of it??? Nothing harvest waits completely devoid of any power over the plant or weather or soil conditions etc etc but there I go personifying harvest but I'm allowed to do that as the READER I can make those mental jumps.... anyway not trying to get all Zen on you but my point is I think there is enough Satori there to be valid....

As far as Marion or Ms Reichold goes I meant no disrespect to either.

All my best -Jarls by the way love the discussion!

[Marion Poirier]

Maggie,
Thank you for providing the gorgeous Ku from the
masters and reminding me that there is more than
one way to write a Ku. I basically follow the teachings
of Shiki who wrote from the perspective, It is what it is,
a simpler style than the others. At the same time I love the
imagination and creativity of the other masters
.
The Ku by Issa is brilliant. Curiously, what he is saying is
from the perspective of a pragmatist, but he leaves room
for possibilities. I think that is a fine compromise between
the approaches of others as well as my own.

I prefer your revised ku as a one liner since you don't
have a fragment but a complete thought. I have one
small suggestion. I think that comfortable could be
substituted for a smaller word and one that would not
use personification since you already have it in sleeps.
Some subtle personification is Ok but I stay away from
anything overt though use it mildly in my other poetry.
I've seen some effective Ku written in little more than
four syllables - some of my own.

how comfortable the wheat sleeps beneath the down

Suggestions:
how still the wheat sleeps beneath the down
or
how silent the wheat sleeps beneath the down

or you may consider snow if you are playing off
JL's original. Also, it would give you a bit more alliteration -
without being over-done - IMO, of course.

This really has a Japanese presence to it. I like it a lot.

M

JL

I like your revision. It fits the criteria of a Ku now with a
slight adjustment. The last line (satori) does not have
to be overt; it can be quite subtle as
evidenced by the Ku's of the masters and the best
contemporary Ku around.

winter wheat
shy pose
beneath the snow

In line 2, I'd use a verb and an adjective- rather than an
adjective and a noun - shy IMO is not the best way
to describe wheat; pose is used as a noun here indicating
a structured attitude - a verb like curled or reclines would
be better with another modifier describing wheat.

You could use a simile without like or as (a hidden simile)
if you wish - or keep it simple.
You are very close to a good Ku. Good work!

M

Jarls

Keep reading and studying. Ku's generally have a reverence
for nature and a spiritual quality. It takes a certain amount
of humility that can't be learned but can be practiced.

Best regards to all,
Marion

M

[Jo Lynn Ehnes]

So something more along the line of

winter wheat
reclines asleep
beneath the snow

[purplejacket]

I think it might be fun to find lines that you then use in a haiku.
I am currently reading Sometimes a Great Notion, so I will try it with this book.

buckwater rapids
liquid aprickle with thorns
grey texture of rain

hee hee hee
A 3-minute haiku.

[Marion Poirier]

JL
Recline and asleep are almost the same in meaning
and both verbs.

Sometimes switching the order or adding/changing
a line makes a difference.
Line 3 could be added here to show a meltdown -
indicating that spring may be near or it could merely
be another image to compare. A little mystery can add
to a Ku but it should not be vague. At least that's my
approach, and as Maggie pointed out, there are different
techniques and styles that the masters used- but I think
a Ku should be meaningful and evoke a mood or feeling in the
reader. You could work this one in a number of ways.

winter wheat
beneath the snow
a stream runs through

PJ
For three minutes I'd say - not bad - condense
and simplify and you may have an effective Ku -
or not.

Marion

[Marion Poirier]

Maggie,
Here's another thought on your Ku

How silent the wheat beneath the snow


Why would you need winter when you have snow-even so, I think you could leave
it out with down.
Also, I see comfortable as an adverb, the way it is being
used here modifying a verb (sleeps).
I've been taught not to use adverbs in haiku.

JL
The suggestion for change in third line is just an idea. You have to really rework these Ku's from every angle and position.
Since through is a preposition, the wording is not
good as I suggested. You have a preposition is line 2 and they should be used sparingly-
sometimes one is needed to connect the images;
therefore beneath is fine.
I would shy away from using two prepositions in a Ku
unless they are less conspicuous.

Marion

[mfwilkie]

I like that M.

[antman]

Methinks the underlying effect of haiku
is its syllable count rule and the depth of
the Ku's meaning to evoke feeling or emotion
within its traditional parameters.
There has to be a balance in haiku,
tradition or modern.
Language is the key as is meter.

winter wheat (3)
sleeps till warmth blankets (5)
harvest waits (3)

Your second line confuses epecially the word
(till). Your thought needs to be more concrete.

something like this...

winter wheat cold sleeps (5)
when late summer awakens (7)
the hungry rejoice (5)

This is traditional and not modern Ku,
it gets harder to balance with fewer
syllables dear poetess.

This is all I can offer you
keep it simple yet concrete,

peace,
anthony

[mfwilkie]

Ant,

Not all masters of ku followed the 17 syllable count.

Buson's above only has 10, Issa's 13, Basho's 12.

Maggie

[Jo Lynn Ehnes]

Marion, how about something like this? Winter wheat is in a paused state until spring


winter wheat
a pause
beneath the snow

[Marion Poirier]

JL - You are getting very close - only I'd use another word
for pause. This does not evoke a strong enough image
in my mind. What would winter wheat look like covered
with snow? You could also use a verb, a noun or an adjective
in place of pause. (poised like you had previously would work
without the adjective, but I think you could find a more descriptive
verb.)

This is a good candidate for a one or two line Ku.
I've rarely seen Ku's in one line in English, but Maggie offered us this link with some great one line ku's.

www.simplyhaiku.com/SHv2n5/haikuclinic/haikuclinic.htm

[Marion Poirier]

JL - I forgot to mention that a pause is not a concrete
image nor is it one that can be evoked by the senses.
IMO you could write this Ku in one to three lines -
but keep in mind that it must be in the present and
not speculation. As Maggie has pointed out, the study
of haiku is an art in itself and takes years of study
of the masters and of the best contemporary poets
in this art including Jane Reichhold. It is not merely
a three line poem with a measured count but extends
far beyond this superficial requirement. The important
factor to remember is that it should not exceed 17
syllables but can be written in one to four lines.

It must always be in the present and never in the future,
past or projected future. It is something that you
can identify with through any of the senses.
Ku's should essentially contain concrete images, but you
have to allow for the other senses that may encompass
a feeling or mood - it should never be abstract.

I will send you more links and information on reguest.

Marion

P.S. I will email you some reference material tomorrow
to begin our journey.
Looking forward to working together.
M

[Jo Lynn Ehnes]

how hushed the winter wheat
beneath the snow

Maggie suggested I spend a few months in the classroom with you, LOL I'm not sure a few months would get this brain working right. Yes please do send those to me. I truly appreciate your time, Marion.

[Marion Poirier]

JL,

I will email you some reference material tomorrow
to begin our journey.
Looking forward to working together.

M

Maggie: We have to update the classroom. The latest
responses should be first - as I, also have learned a
lot since the classroom's inception. Perhaps delete
all but the last 50 pages? Please email me.

Thanks,
Marion